TVLinks Owner Deserved to be Arrested

Posted in: News and Legal, DRM, Piracy & IP by Chris Tew on October 24, 2007

17 People Are Speaking Their Mind

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Gary Says:
October 24th, 2007 at 7:47 am

I think the issue here is not what tv-links.co.uk were doing, but what charge (if any) will be brought against them and what precedent this will set in UK law.

If they are proscuted essentially for linking then this is something we should all consider carefully. I do not think anyone is naive enough to believe that the closure of this site is going to make the availability of these types of services go away.

This said the manner in which any charge or prosecution is brought about is of great importance. This case should be carefully watched to see that precedents in law do not get pushed through without considering there future impact on the Internet industry as a whole.

As a side note the owner of tv-links has been released without charge, pending further investigation.

http://humanopinion.org/support_for_tvlinks_update_2007102412h45
Tony Grason Says:
October 24th, 2007 at 1:28 pm

I’m really pissed off men..!! Linking is not illegal, hosting is… this is completely unfair. But don’t worry, there are plenty of other sites that can perfectly replace tv-links. For example, i found a site that has almost all the tv series, tons of movies and music vids. There’s also Dailymotion or Stage 6, thanks god thay can’t stop us..!! he he LOL
Elton1 Says:
October 24th, 2007 at 11:58 pm

I have made the following site so people can post news and comment on this subject all in one place, and hopefully raise a good deal of support. Please check it out and tell people.
http://www.save-tv-links.co.uk
Anyone who has any ideas that would make this site more functional please get in touch.

Elton1
Tom Reynolds Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 7:32 am

What this post is is a lot of supposition, where is your evidence (as opposed to guesswork).

Also he’s innocent until proven guilty.

But then, I guess that this post is linkbait.
Totz Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 7:43 am

$80,000? lol are you on drugs? The site owner was in full time employment while running the site, any revenue created by the site was spent on hosting costs and site upkeep. This is the most ridiculous article I have ever seen, thanks for bringing some amusement to my otherwise dull tv-link(less) afternoon
jamie Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 8:25 am

lmao..thanks for your article and like it has been mentioned, where is your proof..do you have anything at all to back up your assumptions..like totz said i would also like to thank you for your article of comedy value…ever considered going up in stage, you would make a fortune..move over billy connolly a new man is in town.

$80,000 a month *insert “killing myself laughing” smillie*
Flea Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 8:31 am

you my friend are retarded and have no clue on the facts of the tv-links website, please only comment when you know everything about the article. Tv-links made no where near this amount of money or do you think we would have been taken down so easily!

kind regards
Flea
fthrjack Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 8:57 am

As mentioned earlier, this article is just link bait, more folks link back to this fantasical chicken little story, the more his ranking benefits.

If TVL was making 80k a month USD, then Sin would be driving around in a new Merc every week, im sure the site would also have been much bigger, and harder to take down, and also FACT would be fighting off one huge ass lawsuit right now since TVL would be loaded.

One thing i WOULD like to point out though, is that TVL is not dead yet, and we will be back shortly, “stay tuned”.
Dougie Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 10:33 am

Your off your head mate, if tv links made that much then I dont think the owner would be in full time enployment and not driving around in a flashy car. What you have done is madr tv links look bad, you have wrote your article in a biased way and havent defended tv links once. The main thing you havent done is give any evidence so for some reason I find your article VERY hard to be truthfull
??? Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 11:21 am

Dude your a pure dick, i was part of tv links - it was not illegal oh and there was infact no money involved to the site owner so before you go off with some thoeory, get some fucking backin
Ash W Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 11:29 am

you stupid twat. “the owner would be making over $80,000 each month!” you really do know nothing. please. so everyone a favour and shoot yourself.
Chris Tew Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

For everyone saying that this guy did not make $80,000 a month then do the math:

The site had adverts on - you cannot deny that and you can see these adverts on there using wayback machine and Google Cache.

These Ads could have brought anywhere between $0.5 - $10 CPM - with $3CPM being an educated guess from my own experience.

Alexa tells us the rank of the site and having access to stats for monthly views from sites I can estimate the traffic to be at least 3 million monthly users. I know a site with an Alexa rank of about 4000 has 2 million monthly users - so 3 million is a conservative guess - and probably lower. Alexa also tells us the page views is 9 per user. 9 x 3 - 27 million page views a month.

Follow my workings and you’ll see that $80,000 is even a low estimate for how much this guy could be earning. But this is an estimate - only the owner will know how much he is making - and of course he won’t be shouting that from the roof tops. Even if you divide my realistic estimation by 4 then it is still $20,000 which is a lot of money.

Money being put back into site development and hosting costs does not seem true to me. Hosting costs would be very low - max $1000 a month and the site was community run meaning little up-keep costs. There was no professional design to the site either (again meaning no costs). The profit margins on that site would be very high.

It had more traffic than Ask.com - a company that has over made $300 million profit in 2006.

If anyone can come back and provide solid facts that this guy was not making money from TVLinks then I would love to hear it and would gladly admit my estimations are wrong. So far it looks like everyone who is commenting is just guessing he didn’t make money and can’t back it up with any facts.

Secondly the site is legal under U.S law - if any of you actually looked up any information on internet law you would find that the situation it looks very very bad for TVLinks. There’s plenty of info on that at this site.

Every past similar case ruled against people linking to pirate content - most of these were in the U.S - and UK laws are even stricter about copyright than the U.S although this is the first case of its kind in the UK.

Also I am not against sites like TVLinks as the current situation with TV and video sucks - but I do believe that all their profits from sites like TVLinks should be given to charitable organizations that promote a better distribution of TV content online - that would also put them in a stronger position in the court room - but I don’t see any evidence of TVLinks donating any money and just keeping it.

I speak out against TVLinks because the guy was making money from other people’s hard work - and not giving anything back.

All the other comments people have made are answered in the original article - which they obviously didn’t read properly.
Zippin ( TVL ADMIN) Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Who are you? where are you getting your sums from? You are way off !!!

I know that the site traffic that Alexa stats is wrong! that site you can not realie on 100% and the only way to get the true numbers is from the data on the servers. Also the amount of money you say was being made is again wrong! Because you again does not have the figers and only using your own ones you “guessed” and probaly using figers that maybe other sites have given you… and also you may have run a site too and are using your own figers… Every site operates differently and has different objectives.

Ours was to serve the community and give them what they wanted, and all staff and members helped in this and gave up there own free time…. Every site makes money to a degree if they can for sure !! but to pay the cost of keeping it going and to improve things as time goes on. New ideas that need to be put in place sometimes cost money to do…

You will find alot of peeps will do and say anything to slander TVL and Sin just to get there site or name noticed somewhere along the lines….

I have not got the time for such people like you tbh nor will i engage with them. I only have time for thoses of real concern and wish to help out… but you i made an allowance for..

Also note we did not link to just vids still poss in copyright protection but we had lots of links submitted to us by members to vids out side of the copyright protection such as old films or TV shows etc.

You sir seem to have not got al lthe facts right nor do i expect you to or anyone elses for that matter..

laterZ
Max Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 3:17 pm

Aside from the figures, which I’ll leave for someone smarter than me to work out..

I agree that the artist and content creator should receive their dues… but this is persecution for the sake of legal precedent. The site has broken no actual law and so this is protectionism.

Arresting the owner does not offer a deterrent. It demonstrates how much the media networks stand to lose. And that will only bring more competition. Did shutting down Napster stop music p2p? No it just castrated a local enterprise.

You can’t legislate against technological innovation. If by design the site successfully offers the free market a more accessible distribution channel then dynamics demand that new business models be designed to accommodate that flow. Or else everyone loses out.
Chris Tew Says:
October 25th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

Hey Max

Thanks for the first intelligent comment - I agree - the popularity of these sites just shows how much people want it, and also that the technology is there (TV networks always make the excuse about the technology not being good enough).

TV Networks and movie companies are slowly starting to see this.

As for it breaking a law or not - it is still a grey area but I’d bet my money it goes the way of setting a precedent that linking to pirated material in a systematic way is illegal.

Zippin ( TVL ADMIN)
I’m not saying these figures are exact or spot on - I’ve stated they are estimates, my best guess based on the info available. It is not a random guess - it is an intellectual guess based on stats from Alexa, comparative analysis against other sites traffic and their alexa rank, and a solid knowledge of average advertiser payouts and earnings.

You haven’t offered any real proof to show they are wrong and if you don’t see the bank statements of Mr TVLinks then I assume you don’t know how much he earns from the site.

“all staff and members helped in this and gave up there own free time”

This sounds like TVLinks staff were helping for FREE, meaning even less costs for the site and more profit for the owner.
FthrJACK Says:
October 26th, 2007 at 3:55 am

Ok, i will break this down for you step by step, since you are obviously lacking some grey matter, however it is possible to train even a lab rat given the time and patience so here goes:

>For everyone saying that this guy did not make $80,000 a
>month then do the math:

Do the math? if the figures you use from the very start of your equation are wrong, then the result from your math will be.. guess what? yes thats right, wrong. There is no point in GUESSING, then using math to try justify your groundless and fantasical figures, or even your slanderous comments.

>The site had adverts on - you cannot deny that and you can
>see these adverts on there using wayback machine and Google
>Cache.

So do many sites, however most sites are not the likes of Yahoo.com or such and can charge huge figures per ad or per length of time the ad appears on the site for. Most ads on most sites earn the site owner little to totaly zero. People usually have to click on the ads for the site owner to even earn one penny USD. You see, the companies advertsising need to make money in order to pay for ads, if they where just handing money out like you make out, then every site would be covered in ads, and all site owners would be multi millionaires! Hey, as well as being involved in the running of TVL, i setup and built another site some years ago, that is still running today, and has similar traffic volumes to TVL, with people viewing the site for longer (acording to Alexa) - so wheres my motor yacht and huge house? The ads on that site have made a few $ a month EVER, and just help towards running costs.

>These Ads could have brought anywhere between $0.5 - $10 CPM -> with $3CPM being an educated >guess from my own experience.

Id like to emphasise “COULD HAVE” - but as i mentioned earlier, tv-links was not the likes of msn.com or something. Educated guess? educated where - special school?

>Alexa tells us the rank of the site and having access to
>stats for monthly views from sites I can estimate the traffic
>to be at least 3 million monthly users. I know a site with an
>Alexa rank of about 4000 has 2 million monthly users - so 3
>million is a conservative guess - and probably lower. Alexa
>also tells us the page views is 9 per user. 9 x 3 - 27
>million page views a month.

9 views per user? this also including the forums? Also are you aware that not every page on TVL had adverts, infact most didnt? and our flashplayer appeared in a pop up window, with no ads. Often you could open such a pop up window, then nothing plays.. ok close.. open another.. you get the idea.

>Follow my workings and you’ll see that $80,000 is even a low
>estimate for how much this guy could be earning. But this is
>an estimate - only the owner will know how much he is making -
> and of course he won’t be shouting that from the roof tops.
>Even if you divide my realistic estimation by 4 then it is
>still $20,000 which is a lot of money.

Follow your workings… exactly, your workings, not the FACTS (no pun intended) - not the truth, just figures you have pulled out of your ass! also again emphasis on “COULD BE earning” — ad space is not paid for by placement! Placement ads are the kind of ads that pay you _just_ for appearing as they are directed at the individual user and their taste etc. Regular page ads such as those on TVL are usually paid for per clickthrough OR per click through that actually buys something as a result. NOT just for appearing.

>Money being put back into site development and hosting costs
>does not seem true to me. Hosting costs would be very low -
>max $1000 a month and the site was community run meaning
>little up-keep costs. There was no professional design to the
>site either (again meaning no costs). The profit margins on
>that site would be very high.

IF your imaginary figures where correct then yes that would be true, but as we know.. imaginary figures! Also, if these figures you came up with where true, then the site staff would have been charged with a crime.

>It had more traffic than Ask.com - a company that has over
>made $300 million profit in 2006.

Ask.com has OTHER LINES OF BUSINESS, it makes money in many ways. So now you are insinuating that 1) “Sin” is a multimilionaire hell a billionaire by now
2) is is THAT easy to become so rich doing something like this (err ok everyone would be doing it!)
3) Site hits = Wealth?

>If anyone can come back and provide solid facts that this guy
>was not making money from TVLinks then I would love to hear
>it and would gladly admit my estimations are wrong. So far it
>looks like everyone who is commenting is just guessing he
>didn’t make money and can’t back it up with any facts.

Aliens invaded 6 years ago and replaced the entire Congress and also george bush with clones to do their bidding with, but its all hush hush, even the clones think they are the real people! provide me solid facts that this isnt true - otherwise it must be!!
also FYI - people commenting here are ex TVL members and quite a few of them including myself are EX TVL STAFF YOU DUMMY.

>Secondly the site is legal under U.S law - if any of you
>actually looked up any information on internet law you would
>find that the situation it looks very very bad for TVLinks.
>There’s plenty of info on that at this site.

Ok, but without wanting to read up on US law for this one, id like to point out a few things to that shrunken raisin you call a brain: TV-LINKS WAS NOT IN THE USA. Therefore: DOES NOT FALL UNDER US LAW. Incase you hadnt realised, US law stops right off the coast of Hawaii, and goes no further. Just as Uk law doesent apply in Alabama — still not quite grasped the whole “WORLD wide web” thing yet have you?

>Every past similar case ruled against people linking to
>pirate content - most of these were in the U.S - and UK laws
>are even stricter about copyright than the U.S although this
>is the first case of its kind in the UK.

Case.. in the Uk.. erm, there isnt a case actually, just an unwarranted arrest and siezure of goods and information without true legal basis. Said goods then being held onto as “evidence” — its just a method used to shut a site down that wasnt breaking any UK or EU law, yet got up the noses of people with very big wallets. Remember, to get “justice” in this day and age in any country it is not about anything other than the size of your wallet and how many lawyers you have. Dont Kid yourself any different.

>Also I am not against sites like TVLinks as the current
>situation with TV and video sucks - but I do believe that all
>their profits from sites like TVLinks should be given to
>charitable organizations that promote a better distribution
>of TV content online - that would also put them in a stronger
>position in the court room - but I don’t see any evidence of
>TVLinks donating any money and just keeping it.

Keeping it.. it wasnt MAKING it. See previous paragraphs.

>I speak out against TVLinks because the guy was making money
>from other people’s hard work - and not giving anything back.

>All the other comments people have made are answered in the
>original article - which they obviously didn’t read properly.

Yes they did, i do hope that YOU now read properly, and realise who “those people” are that you are refering to, to make it a little clearer: they are people who dont have to “guess” and “make up” figures to suit some slanderous story they posted to try grab attention.

Also as for linking “responsibly” you may note those little “disclaimers” about “not being responsible for other sites” even google has one. Your child pornography statement is totaly flawed, if i link to this page from my site, then 3 months later you turn this page into a Scat website — might be perfectly legal in your country, but lets say it isnt in mine - am i going to jail??
Chris Tew Says:
October 26th, 2007 at 6:04 am

"if the figures you use from the very start of your equation are wrong"
Not wrong - it is an estimate based on real statistics and information - as I’ve stated before. You have been unable to give a more accurate estimate.

"Regular page ads such as those on TVL are usually paid for per clickthrough OR per click through that actually buys something as a result. NOT just for appearing"
There are plenty of ads that pay a CPM rate (they pay just for the ad appearing). I have them here on WebTVWire. Even on a CPC or CPA basis an average $3 per 1000 views is still realistic. But as I said this does vary. I expect my estimates could vary 80% either way - but even at the very lowest it would be 10-20k a month, and it could even be higher.

"however most sites are not the likes of Yahoo.com or such and can charge huge figures per ad or per length of time the ad appears on the site for"
Firstly TVLinks was a huge site, secondly I took into account the level of ad spend on sites like TvLinks. Yahoo might get $10 - $50 CPM rate because of its brand and size. so $3 CPM is still a good estimate for TVLinks.

"Ok, but without wanting to read up on US law for this one, id like to point out a few things to that shrunken raisin you call a brain: TV-LINKS WAS NOT IN THE USA"
Yes I know - I stated the site is in the UK and will fall under UK law - have another read. The point I’m making is there are similarities in UK internet law and U.S internet law - with the UK and Europe being more harsh than the U.S - which is not good for TVLinks.

"Case.. in the Uk.. erm, there isnt a case actually"
He got arrested and will face a legal battle. A European lawyer specializing in linking law who knows more than anyone here will tell you this is true:
http://www.webtvwire.com/linking-law-expert-dr-stephan-ott-talks-about-linking-to-pirated-video/
I’ve actually dropped him an email to ask his opinion.
I’ve spoken to multiple UK and European lawyers about this in the past and they have all said this is illegal.

"Remember, to get “justice” in this day and age in any country it is not about anything other than the size of your wallet and how many lawyers you have. "
I agree with this to an extent - but the reason you don’t see legitamate companies operating a site like TVLinks is because they know they will go down for it, because it is illegal.

"Ask.com has OTHER LINES OF BUSINESS, it makes money in many ways"
Yes I know - hence why Ask.com makes $1 million a month and I estimate TVLinks to be at $80,000 - my point is that given the traffic levels TVLinks had the potential to be a very large company.

"Keeping it.. it wasnt MAKING it. See previous paragraphs."
How do you know - you seem to know less than me. You have provided very little facts or information to substantiate your argument.

"Also, if these figures you came up with where true, then the site staff would have been charged with a crime. "
How do you come to that conclusion - they weren’t staff because as far as I can see they weren’t been paid. Secondly a staff member working on site maintanence such as working on the sites HTML, or removing spam posts from the forum would not be a crime. Since when does a site’s profit levels make staff more or less guilty.

"people commenting here are ex TVL members and quite a few of them including myself are EX TVL STAFF YOU DUMMY."
That does not mean you know how much the owner was being paid for his ads. I have staff for my site and they don’t know how much each ad brings me. Have any of these unpaid staff seen the TVLinks bank account? It appears not and that they are just assuming the guy did not make any money.

"Also as for linking “responsibly” you may note those little “disclaimers” about “not being responsible for other sites” even google has one. "
Ask a lawyer and you will see disclaimers have very little weight in a court room - especially where a site was breaking the law.

"if i link to this page from my site, then 3 months later you turn this page into a Scat website — might be perfectly legal in your country, but lets say it isnt in mine - am i going to jail?? "
If you are informed by authorities that you are linking to an illegal site and you refuse/don’t remove the link then you will then be responsible for what you link to.

"9 views per user? this also including the forums? Also are you aware that not every page on TVL had adverts, infact most didnt? and our flashplayer appeared in a pop up window, with no ads. Often you could open such a pop up window, then nothing plays.. ok close.. open another.. you get the idea."
This is about the only useful info you have provided. I found adverts within the forums and most other pages of TVL but you are correct I did not take into consideration the flash player page which does not contain adverts. I would expect this to reduce the number of page views with ads on by 50-70%. This would reduce my estimation to about $20,000 a month - still a lot of money.

But this is based on a very low estimation of 3 million visitors a month - I know that sites ranked around 3000 have 3 million visitors a month and statistics from compete.com and alexa.com show TVL to be about 10x busier meaning $200,000 a month. Taken the lowest estimate this site was making $5-20k = higher estimates would bring it to $500k or more. Either way its making good money.

If you can provide hard evidence the site was not making money then I’d be happy to hear it, but the evidence available shows that it was.

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